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 Making a Stand 
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Post Making a Stand
A picture of the Prophet Muhammad

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all I can say is. WHY?. Why? should I follow some religions rules out of terror we are forced to out of a feeling of respect and dignity and the fear of being blown up. Why should I have to "feel your pain and how looking at the picture must of really hurt you awww" but no what happens a direct quote from protesters when they looked at said picture "Kill the infidels" and "behead those who say Islam is a violent religion"

we must fight for freedom of speech now or we are going to lose it for ever

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Post Re: Making a Stand
I believe it was this picture that pissed them all off. Basically, we show this picture and they respond by blowing shit up. The irony of it all:

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Post Re: Making a Stand
CarsitoPyg wrote:
I believe it was this picture that pissed them all off. Basically, we show this picture and they respond by blowing shit up. The irony of it all:

[ http://www.religionnewsblog.com/graphics/muhammad_cartoon.jpg ]



The stupidty of the matter is that none of the picture's that the newspaper published were actually offensive however seemingly out of nowhere a few Muslims said they put stuff like that picture... urghh

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Post Re: Making a Stand
I'm not sure what incident you're talking about, because I do remember one where a cartoon of their prophet Muhammad was made fun of or something similar, which is indeed offensive to them, if not to us.

Their religion is NOT an aggressive/violent one. Just because there are extremists in the religion who will kill those who do not believe/insult their religion, does not mean the rest of them are like that. Those are the people who are twisting their own scriptures to use for their liking. Generalizations like that are what make it hard for the others to be able to be separated from the terrorists.

Judging from the content though, I think this thread might belong more in No Spam than in Serious.

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Post Re: Making a Stand
rosie wrote:
I'm not sure what incident you're talking about, because I do remember one where a cartoon of their prophet Muhammad was made fun of or something similar, which is indeed offensive to them, if not to us.

Their religion is NOT an aggressive/violent one. Just because there are extremists in the religion who will kill those who do not believe/insult their religion, does not mean the rest of them are like that. Those are the people who are twisting their own scriptures to use for their liking. Generalizations like that are what make it hard for the others to be able to be separated from the terrorists.

Judging from the content though, I think this thread might belong more in No Spam than in Serious.



The newspapers didn't actually post the truely offensive pictures. I believe you will find their religion is an aggressive/violent one. the fact is there were mass riots,more than "just extremists". Also read the Sharia law then tell me it isn't a violent religion. The other 85 percent of Muslims are not fundamentalists, but their beliefs are not based on a literal interpretation of the Quran and the acts of Muhammad. And they rarely speak out strongly enough against the Muslim fundamentalists to make a difference. If there is a "peaceful" majority of Muslims, they had better speak out clearly and strongly against the growing power of the fundamentalists, or they will be confused with the Muslims who bring future terrorist acts against this different countries.

Sura 9:5, "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."

Yeah I can see how that could be COMPLETELY out of context

for further quotes Sura 9:73, "Prophet, make war on unbelievers and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them."
Unlike Christianity there is no New testament of Peace and Love and principals that we should really try to follow.

While so called "moderate "Muslims don't take all of the Quran seriously or literally enough to implement the more violent commands of the Quran, can we say that a Muslim who doesn't take his Quran seriously is a Muslim?

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Post Re: Making a Stand
the gays are constantly making fun of Jesus and you don't see San Fransisco blowing up.

yes, not ALL muslims are violent, but they are the dangerous ones right now. that picture was making fun of the violent muslims, and, of course, they decide to blow shit up in retaliation. "HOW DARE YOU CALL US VIOLENT!!"

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Post Re: Making a Stand
Actually, the problem is that YOU just don't hear about that other 85 %, including many of the leaders, who DO speak out STRONGLY against such groups and acts of violent retaliation and such. Also, you do realize you said that such a group was "not fundamentalist, but their beliefs are not based on a literal interpretation of the Quran" is redundant, as fundamentalist generally means interprets literally.

They actually do have a strong stress on peace in parts and of good treatment of others. One of their 5 pillars is alms giving, after all. And they still adhere to the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule. And Jihad is considered by many to be a matter of inner war/struggle against ones own shortcomings.

And, unfortunately, you actually do find plenty of extremist Christian and many other religious groups doing somewhat similar violent acts at times. Including making hit lists and actually caring them out, blowing stuff up, and many other things. Hell, you'll find some Atheists doing likewise in the name of atheism. Most of these groups of people are not really following their own faiths precepts in many ways, because they ignore certain aspects in their zeal for other aspects.

Thats not to say their are not, or have not been, religions that are really violent. The various Viking religions I would say were/are very violent, with such glorified/rewarded deaths as dying with a sword (generally meaning fighting) in your hand, and an extreme stress on this being the particular way for everyone to die, and with their various legendary books and myths emphasizing fighting and killing all the time in rather brutal ways, even treacherous ways which are glorified rather than punished.

But, I don't think Islam is necessarily one of them. There may be that trend in some groups, but violent people can make anything violent. I remember several years ago there were people turning from protest to violent riot in protest of violent war. Did that make sense? No, not really.

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Post Re: Making a Stand
To Carsyto Pig: my whole point was that their religion is not based around violence and aggression. Yes, there are a lot of violent Muslims right now. That does not, however, equate to their whole religion being a violent one. I was not addressing the picture, but rather the comment left by Haz.

To Haz: Well, what you took IS taken out of context, for if you read on in the Qu'ran, there is more:

Quote:
009.006: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.


The Qu'ran isn't meant to be taken piece by piece. There is also a problem with translation. We are reading the English translation of the Qu'ran. There is always something lost, words used differently, meanings lost, because of translations.

And while there is no section (that I can see so far) devotedly solely to addressing peace, love, and kindness, if you read the Qu'ran, you'll see that it is all spread throughout.

Quote:
002.081 - Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins,- they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
002.082 - But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
002.083 - And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).
002.084 - And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye can bear witness.
002.085 - After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
002.086 - These are the people who buy the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter: their penalty shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped.


Quote:
107.001 - Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)?
107.002 - Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness),
107.003 - And encourages not the feeding of the indigent.
107.004 - So woe to the worshippers
107.005 - Who are neglectful of their prayers,
107.006 - Those who (want but) to be seen (of men),
107.007 - But refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs.


Also, not taking something literally does not mean the same thing as not taking something seriously.

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Post Re: Making a Stand
rosie wrote:
To Carsyto Pig: my whole point was that their religion is not based around violence and aggression. Yes, there are a lot of violent Muslims right now. That does not, however, equate to their whole religion being a violent one. I was not addressing the picture, but rather the comment left by Haz.

To Haz: Well, what you took IS taken out of context, for if you read on in the Qu'ran, there is more:

Quote:
009.006: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.


The Qu'ran isn't meant to be taken piece by piece. There is also a problem with translation. We are reading the English translation of the Qu'ran. There is always something lost, words used differently, meanings lost, because of translations.

And while there is no section (that I can see so far) devotedly solely to addressing peace, love, and kindness, if you read the Qu'ran, you'll see that it is all spread throughout.

Quote:
002.081 - Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins,- they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
002.082 - But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
002.083 - And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).
002.084 - And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye can bear witness.
002.085 - After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
002.086 - These are the people who buy the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter: their penalty shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped.


Quote:
107.001 - Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)?
107.002 - Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness),
107.003 - And encourages not the feeding of the indigent.
107.004 - So woe to the worshippers
107.005 - Who are neglectful of their prayers,
107.006 - Those who (want but) to be seen (of men),
107.007 - But refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs.


Also, not taking something literally does not mean the same thing as not taking something seriously.



Ahh contridictions how I love them. Anyway the matter isn't whether Islam is a Violent religion but instead whether I should have to comply to these rules. The fact is that such things are not getting defined as hate speech and we need to fight for freedom

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Post Re: Making a Stand
Haz wrote:
rosie wrote:
To Carsyto Pig: my whole point was that their religion is not based around violence and aggression. Yes, there are a lot of violent Muslims right now. That does not, however, equate to their whole religion being a violent one. I was not addressing the picture, but rather the comment left by Haz.

To Haz: Well, what you took IS taken out of context, for if you read on in the Qu'ran, there is more:

Quote:
009.006: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.


The Qu'ran isn't meant to be taken piece by piece. There is also a problem with translation. We are reading the English translation of the Qu'ran. There is always something lost, words used differently, meanings lost, because of translations.

And while there is no section (that I can see so far) devotedly solely to addressing peace, love, and kindness, if you read the Qu'ran, you'll see that it is all spread throughout.

Quote:
002.081 - Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins,- they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
002.082 - But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
002.083 - And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).
002.084 - And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye can bear witness.
002.085 - After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
002.086 - These are the people who buy the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter: their penalty shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped.


Quote:
107.001 - Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)?
107.002 - Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness),
107.003 - And encourages not the feeding of the indigent.
107.004 - So woe to the worshippers
107.005 - Who are neglectful of their prayers,
107.006 - Those who (want but) to be seen (of men),
107.007 - But refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs.


Also, not taking something literally does not mean the same thing as not taking something seriously.



Ahh contridictions how I love them. Anyway the matter isn't whether Islam is a Violent religion but instead whether I should have to comply to these rules. The fact is that such things are not getting defined as hate speech and we need to fight for freedom


I'm not sure exactly what you mean by contradictions from that, unless you mean some people have acted in contradiction. In any case, you seem to have proposed something here: maybe such displays as you have made SHOULD be considered hate speech. Now, whether hate speech should be protected is another matter.
The thing is, you don't have to comply with their rules. However you'd be less of a jerk if you respected the fact that what you do needlessly greatly offends them. And realize, if you have the freedom to speak out in such a way, they equally have the freedom to protest you and your words. Going to far with the violence? Maybe, but again, you just tried to get them worked up. I'm sure there are a lot of things they could do that would greatly offend and work you up that might get you thinking of similar things (not that you would personally necessarily give in).

Interestingly, rosie's post has reminded me that keeping in mind we are using a translation is actually particularly important here, at least for Islam. There are some groups in Islam that would even say that Quran is not actually Quran if it is translated. Others would allow it a bit more (not that any that I've heard of restrict it, they just don't consider the translation on the same level as the original, and teach their followers to read the original).

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Post Re: Making a Stand
n0th1n wrote:
Haz wrote:
rosie wrote:
To Carsyto Pig: my whole point was that their religion is not based around violence and aggression. Yes, there are a lot of violent Muslims right now. That does not, however, equate to their whole religion being a violent one. I was not addressing the picture, but rather the comment left by Haz.

To Haz: Well, what you took IS taken out of context, for if you read on in the Qu'ran, there is more:

Quote:
009.006: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.


The Qu'ran isn't meant to be taken piece by piece. There is also a problem with translation. We are reading the English translation of the Qu'ran. There is always something lost, words used differently, meanings lost, because of translations.

And while there is no section (that I can see so far) devotedly solely to addressing peace, love, and kindness, if you read the Qu'ran, you'll see that it is all spread throughout.

Quote:
002.081 - Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins,- they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
002.082 - But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
002.083 - And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).
002.084 - And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye can bear witness.
002.085 - After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
002.086 - These are the people who buy the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter: their penalty shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped.


Quote:
107.001 - Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)?
107.002 - Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness),
107.003 - And encourages not the feeding of the indigent.
107.004 - So woe to the worshippers
107.005 - Who are neglectful of their prayers,
107.006 - Those who (want but) to be seen (of men),
107.007 - But refuse (to supply) (even) neighbourly needs.


Also, not taking something literally does not mean the same thing as not taking something seriously.



Ahh contridictions how I love them. Anyway the matter isn't whether Islam is a Violent religion but instead whether I should have to comply to these rules. The fact is that such things are not getting defined as hate speech and we need to fight for freedom


I'm not sure exactly what you mean by contradictions from that, unless you mean some people have acted in contradiction. In any case, you seem to have proposed something here: maybe such displays as you have made SHOULD be considered hate speech. Now, whether hate speech should be protected is another matter.
The thing is, you don't have to comply with their rules. However you'd be less of a jerk if you respected the fact that what you do needlessly greatly offends them. And realize, if you have the freedom to speak out in such a way, they equally have the freedom to protest you and your words. Going to far with the violence? Maybe, but again, you just tried to get them worked up. I'm sure there are a lot of things they could do that would greatly offend and work you up that might get you thinking of similar things (not that you would personally necessarily give in).

Interestingly, rosie's post has reminded me that keeping in mind we are using a translation is actually particularly important here, at least for Islam. There are some groups in Islam that would even say that Quran is not actually Quran if it is translated. Others would allow it a bit more (not that any that I've heard of restrict it, they just don't consider the translation on the same level as the original, and teach their followers to read the original).


The only reason I posted the picture was to prove a point


if you consider what I just said as Hate speech then good sir... I don't believe that you believe in Freedom of speech

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Post Re: Making a Stand
Continuing from what Lime said, if you read the Old Testament, God is a very vengeful being who even commands a guy to burn his own child alive.

Christianity can ease their way out of this one with the new teachings of the New Testament, but the Jews are fucked. They have a violent, vengeful God as well as the Muslims.

Norse Gods (Vikings) encouraged great warriors. That was the main point. This is common in Polytheism.

As for Noth1n, Radical Christianity is nothing like Radical Islam AT THIS MOMENT. And the Moderates aren't helping, either. They're the ones who complain about Profiling and bad things being said about Muslims, and they DEMAND that censorship is used. Much of Europe actually gives in to this censorship and the political correctness is off the charts up there when it comes to Muslims. It seems that the moderates are actually helping the extremists get what they want.

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Post Re: Making a Stand
Actually, I did not know about what was happening in Europe. I'm trying to find more information about that, but so far this is all I've found: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ourts.html ...From what that article says (and I'm trying to find a better one), what they are trying to do is impose the laws of whatever country the people involved are from. It's not necessarily forcing the sharia law on everyone.

I've also found this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... doors.html ...which does not really seem to be something forced upon all either.

There is probably more to this than I can find, so if you could provide articles and whatnot, that would be great.

The reason why I brought up translation is because while I was trying to find the full text of the Qu'ran, I found many variations in terms of translations, all of which were similar, but not always the quite the same meaning.

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Post Re: Making a Stand
dang it! its hard to reply in generL serios, but everything gets lost in translation

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Post Re: Making a Stand
You really shouldn't be responding in serious if you're just trying to get your name in all the posts.

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