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There must be Justice.
http://www.forkheads.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1972		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  cluelessfurball [ Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: There must be Justice.
Well, bad people tend to get what's coming to them. As the old say goes "what goes around comes around". Bad people eventually get what they deserve.
Author:  n0th1n [ Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: There must be Justice.
Well, thats partially because of a concept like Socrates mentions in Plato's "The Last Days Of Socrates", I believe in the Apologia but I'm not certain:

If a man corrupts others, or does bad things to others, he creates bad people around him. Bad people around him can only be harmful to himself. Thus it would be foolish to do bad things to others as they end up making a bad environment in which they likewise get harmed.

Creating this bad environment, however, will not exclusively harm the one making it, but everyone.
Creating a good environment benefits everyone, not exclusively the one creating the good environment.

In some ways you may call this a "get whats coming to them" but likewise everyone gets it regardless. They simply get it because its "in the air" so to speak.
Author:  Hammm [ Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: There must be Justice.
Is it possible then, by that logic, that the desire for bad things to happen to others is creates a "bad air" around the person and creates further "injustice" against them?
Author:  n0th1n [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: There must be Justice.
Indeed, and now you can understand "love your enemy, do good to those who wrong you, bless those who curse you".

The real difficulty is going to be taking that to its further reaches, under which you die for those who betray you. At that point, after all, you must wonder what worse could have possibly been done to you had you retaliated.
Author:  Dark Jester [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: There must be Justice.
The only problem is that this bad air only exists within the mind of the person who was screwed in the first place. Is it so wrong to long for those that do us wrong to be punished for their wrong doings? What you're implying is that getting pissed off when someone fucks you over is like a cosmic magnet that attracts even more assholes. Lest we ourselves become the hand that enacts the punishment upon the wicked (in which case we're not enacting justice, but rather vengeance), we've done nothing wrong ourselves. It's easy to say "turn the other cheek" and "do unto others". And I will agree that the bad air exists in the sense that one person being an asshole can have a chain reaction that creates other assholes. But how is ignoring wrong doing justice? Inaction in the face of injustice makes one morally culpable.

As for dying for those who have wronged and betrayed you, I don't believe in that hogwash. It's far to idealistic to believe in such a response. Jesus Christ could do it, but he's the son of god. We are but humble men with humble human emotions and psychologies. You can forgive your enemies but you shouldn't sacrifice yourself for them. What good does that bring about? In all likelihood, if they had wronged you to the point where you had to die for them, then I'd imagine they wouldn't really see the significance of your sacrifice. They would more than likely consider it a victory for themselves. The only way justice arises out of this is if the clouds part, a light beams down upon the wrong-doer, and life smacks them in their face to make them change their ways. But look around you in these times we live in...how many people that have fucked you over would you die for? How many of those would give two shits that you died for them?

However none of this has to do with the omnipotent force of justice that this topic was started to discuss about. We've delved into the realm of human response towards wrong-doing and whether or not such human responses are just. Again I reiterate: if no such "force" exists then how humans respond and react to one another is completely irrelevant. The asshole gets to go on being an asshole where as the victim will continually be a victim. In such a world, the bad air doesn't matter because the only way to get ahead in life is to go from being a victim to being an asshole yourself. In such a world, the only thing that comes close to being justice is vengeance.
Author:  cluelessfurball [ Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: There must be Justice.
Well, you're only a victim when you decide to be. You can either hold onto resentments and be a victim, or release them and go on. People with the victim mentality, tend to be victimized.
Author:  Dark Jester [ Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: There must be Justice.
I was using the term "victim" in the sense of "the one on the receiving end of a wrong-doing". A victim doesn't need to feel "victimized" in order to be a victim.
Author:  n0th1n [ Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: There must be Justice.
pinkturbokitty wrote:
Well, you're only a victim when you decide to be. You can either hold onto resentments and be a victim, or release them and go on. People with the victim mentality, tend to be victimized.


Yea... no. Just because people can go too far in one direction (seeing themselves as victims and breaking down, doing nothing about situations, calling themselves the victim of everything irrationally) doesn't mean its impossible to go too far in the other direction (saying you're ONLY a victim when you decide to be).

People can objectively be victims of many things, including injustice. Being a victim does not necessarily mean they hold on to resentments, not that they let things go on. the "victim mentality" is simply a reflection on general traits people have witnessed in many victims, not a definition or criteria for being a victim.
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