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 Morality of Homosexuality 
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Post Morality of Homosexuality
My question is, "Is homosexuality immoral?" Before you respond, I'm not asking if it should be legal or not. I am asking a deeper question. Is it morally ok, or SHOULD it be causing a ruckus? Granted this is a topic, I would believe has no right or wrong answer, because this is solely a question of opinion and of social standards (and many people's standards are different and changing). I don't want just a vote, but also your reasons. Your evidence, if you will (not proof, but evidence).

Personally, I actually have not decided yet. I am torn between my liberal upbringing, telling me to accept everyone for who they are, and my Christian beliefs. In the old testament Homosexuality was always considered sinful. This may have been a cultural thing, but who knows? Also, naturally speaking, a man and a woman are needed in order to reproduce. This doesn't really have anything to do with morality, but it just makes heterosexuality seem right and make sense.

However, I must say that it isn't fair to condemn a homosexual, because usually they aren't gay by choice. Many psychologists (or psychiatrists, whichever has the medical degree, i always get them confused) believe that the upbringing or some early childhood trauma may have turned each homosexual into what they are. This isn't fair. Yet, who's to say that they are wrong? Maybe certain people can only find true love in another person of the same sex.

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
I'm am a firm believer in the catholic faith and they don't think its wrong to be homosexual(that's something they can't control), but disprove only of the act of homosexuality.

I was taught God is love and Love is never wrong. not love is right went your of age and with a partner of the opposite sex only in marriage. but anyways love is never wrong even if that mean you love someone who is he same sex.
That's my short view of it not getting into details or personal things.

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
valacre IV wrote:
yes, god said "be fruitful and multiply"

and you can't if youre gay


Or impotent. Or disabled. Or really unattractive.

One's worth should hardly be dependent on whether one can reproduce or not...if anything, we need LESS reproduction.

Even if homosexuality WAS a choice, why is it immoral? How is it causing ANY harm to anybody? If I start having sex with another man, does this make me a bad person?

I firmly believe that the only person who can truly decide whether something is right or wrong is yourself, Gods and politicians shouldn't guide your moral compass...you have your own little voice inside you telling you if something is wrong or not. And even then, it should only apply to YOUR actions. I mean, what right does any human being have to infringe on the rights of another?


Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:37 pm
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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
I discussed the matter of morality with Lime earlier (simply of the term morality) and I think we came to some understanding or agreement on the basics of the term itself, but he can say so for himself.

But, along those lines, you are wrong as to this being purely a question of opinion with no right or wrong answer. The term "immoral", linking to "morals" indicates that there is indeed a right or wrong answer and that opinions do not matter. Morality is a concept of universals which apply to everyone and stand outside of the will or thinking or even necessity of perception by anyone or anything. They are to be objective and apply to all, though they may be very complex in implementation and in details. This is the concept, many reject the existence of such absolutes, in which case there are no morals and this is only a theoretical concept.
Values are more along the lines of what you are thinking. They do not have to be absolute or universal, and they can be (generally are) guided simply by societal ideas and customs, or personal feelings or whatnot and differ from person to person.

Now, maldecite is somewhat right on the stance of Catholics on the matter. The disposition itself is neither moral nor immoral, its simply there. Acting upon such inclinations and performing homosexual acts is considered a sin/immoral, similar to how it is immoral for an unmarried heterosexual person to act upon their desires to have sex or perform other sexual acts with a person of the opposite sex. There MAY be a difference of degree, I don't know, its already in pretty bad territory though, though not as bad as say murder or something.

As for the part about love, maldecite is a bit confused, probably due to language. In the English language we have only one word for love (or two degree words "like" and "love"). In Greek where alot of our stuff comes from (New Testement written in greek, for instance), there are at least three words. Eros, describing the "romantic" love between two people, which we popularly think of, Philia, brotherly or friendship love between people, and Agape, sometimes called "Divine Love", which is considered the highest form of love almost unachievable in completion by man, and which is most used in the New Testemant and which is what is used in the famous "God is Love" part. Love, as the emotion, is neither moral or immoral by itself, but can become extremely good when put to the right purposes, or very bad when put to the wrong, as any other natural thing can. As Lewis says in the prologue to his The Four Loves: "God is Love, but the reverse is not true" and quoting another "Love ceases to be a demon when it ceases to be a god". We cannot set up all love as a justification for everything. People do all kinds of terrible things for love: murder, suicide, psychotic stalking, etc.

As for who is it harming: well, I can answer it in two ways: 1) We believe everything is connected, thus any bad is a bad to all and effects all, similar with good (Socrates expressed similar at his trial), 2) we are all responsible for each other, and if we all truly love each other, we try to help protect each other from evil, even from simply self-inflicted evil, out of love for each other (theres that word again). To see one we love harming themselves is pain for us, and we also know that to stand by and not even try to help makes us accountable for such evil. Just as you would expect anyone, seeing a man caught in a painful animal trap, to try and help the other, and we would hold them accountable for the pain or death of that one if they did nothing but instead moved on.

Also, Chapter 20 of Leviticus is fun. And the punishment is for the actions, not for being any particular way or desire at that point.

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
Lime wrote:
meldecite wrote:
I'm am a firm believer in the catholic faith and they don't think its wrong to be homosexual(that's something they can't control), but disprove only of the act of homosexuality.

I was taught God is love and Love is never wrong. not love is right went your of age and with a partner of the opposite sex only in marriage. but anyways love is never wrong even if that mean you love someone who is he same sex.
That's my short view of it not getting into details or personal things.

Have a look at Leviticus 20:13 .... Just read all of Leviticus Chapter 20.

And if you wanna spin that Jesus doesn't agree argument. John 5:46-47. Matthew 5:17-20.

And it is not morally wrong or right as each person defines it themselves. It just is what it is; people try to put a label on everything.

As for me I could care less if a man wants to have sex with another man. It doesn't hurt me.

I'd argue this in the teaching of the church that doesn't just rely on the bible. in a particular paragraph of the CCC i think its paragraph 2357 or around there. that it says the church does not dispute that homosexuality is still wildly unexplained and so since this orientation can not be said by certain its a decision instead of a genetics that the church does not have anything wrong with someone being homosexual. only in he act of homosexuality is the church willing to dispute.

And i didn't read n0th1n's one yet

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
Explain why

Homosexuality is bad other than God being very insecure and not liking it. It harms no one does nothing and quoting scripture isn't going to change that

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
god's not insecure and anyone who isn't ok with homosexuality is afraid of something that is much more open now and insecure about something they have nothing to worry about. and i find homosexuals more honest and secure about life

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
meldecite wrote:
god's not insecure and anyone who isn't ok with homosexuality is afraid of something that is much more open now and insecure about something they have nothing to worry about. and i find homosexuals more honest and secure about life


eh? you're in the religion that is against it

"Thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is an abomination" (Leviticus 18:22)

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination..." (Leviticus 20:13)

"Professing themselves wise they became fools...And like wise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men...Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them" (Romans1:22- 32)

why? because they like men saddening really

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
I am with the religion that doesn't approve of homosexual actions. that doesn't mean i don't. i have no problem with homosexuals. some of my friends are and a couple of them are Catholics too.

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
meldecite wrote:
I am with the religion that doesn't approve of homosexual actions. that doesn't mean i don't. i have no problem with homosexuals. some of my friends are and a couple of them are Catholics too.


doesn't approve it says to fucking kill them! if you don't believe that homosexuals are bad then you aren't a true Believer

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
in the old testament for god fucking sake. and i believe what the church teaches again for the last time in not only the bible in fact most of the teaching fallow the new testament and u would like to go look up the book they use for the teaching it is the CCC the catechism of the catholic church. ok go look up homosexuality in there. and there are several other book in which the church teaches. and i am a true believer. I understand and practice my faith.

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
meldecite wrote:
in the old testament for god fucking sake. and i believe what the church teaches again for the last time in not only the bible in fact most of the teaching fallow the new testament and u would like to go look up the book they use for the teaching it is the CCC the catechism of the catholic church. ok go look up homosexuality in there. and there are several other book in which the church teaches. and i am a true believer. I understand and practice my faith.


so basically you are going to ignore what the bible says because it doesn't fit your new modern viewpoint 1st let me make things clear you believe in both the new and old testament and the new testament. by Jesus's Teaching the only difference is you shouldn't kill them he lived his morals from the old testament he says it himself he say that he isn't here to change any of the stuff from the old testament. Jesus still condems homosexuality

you don't seem to understand your faith at all. Because you don't seem to understand that you have to follow both old and new testament. I mean as I said earlier Jesus's Morals were from the Old testament (although how he was such a nice guy from that I will never know) if you aren't against homosexuality you are against your religion

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
i'm not ignoring the bible we believe in the bible but the bible is not the teaching of the church it is not the catechism. its not a modern view point. as an individual i have no problem with homosexuals as does the church as a whole. now the thing the church jesus god old testament and new testament. they do not approve of homosexual ACTIONS. the church believes those who are homosexual are called to chastity. so no, me not being against homosexuality doesn't mean i'm against my faith, although not being against its actions just makes me more open minded and loving then the church's catechism.

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
Interesting how you trust that Jesus actually said these things in these accounts, yet not many of the other things in the books which are accounted.

In any case, maldecite is kinda right. All those things are against actions. We differentiate between homosexuals and gays as it were. Gay meaning you engage, usually openly/willingly/with public knowledge, in homosexual ACTIONS, homosexual meaning simply you have that attraction.

Neither of you have actually argued against this distinction, your quotes actually have outlined the point: "you shall not lie with a man as with a woman". Thats a command against an action. It is not "you shall hate and kill all those who are man and feel attraction to another man as a man should feel attraction to a woman". Interestingly, this doesn't even directly deal with homosexuals. A person could be bi-sexual and perform the same acts, or even more or less straight. Hell, happens in prisons all the time, and has happened under certain influences throughout history in certain cultures. In fact, in some religions this was sometimes one of the rituals needed to be performed before a god of some sort.

Yet I don't see either of you bringing up a problem with condemning sex with animals yet either, nor sex with your mother. And why is that? Are either of these 'hurting anyone'? How about the part against having sex with a woman on her period?

We would say these things actually do, and include pre-marital sex as well, as what they do is abuse sexuality and sex themselves, breaking what we call natural law, which would dictate sex in a certain fashion for the purpose of procreation, though not necessarily limiting it to only serving this purpose.

I think someone mentioned this would discount impotent people and eunuchs (who can actually have sex) from things like marriage and such as well. Actually it does. To be married in the Catholic Church you need generally to get some medical exams which say you are at least capable of sex and potentially could yield children (though you can have a low chance for whatever reason). Someone who has received a vasectomy or had tubes tied would thus not be eligible unless the process were able to be reversed prior (these procedures are already against teaching anyway). If, however, something happens after you are married to change things, you are still married and thats fine.

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Post Re: Morality of Homosexuality
oh i'm over this i'm not going to debate my religion and just so u know i didn't read ur argument lime and decide it was wrong. i just feel like reading that much its 1 in the morning and i'm tired. maybe one day i'll pic a fight again but for now i'm leaving it to N0th1n

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