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 Anarchy Vs Efficiency and much much more. 
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Post Anarchy Vs Efficiency and much much more.
My friend and I had a huge discussion that took up about 8 pages in Microsoft word.
It covered quite a few different viewpoints and ways to loo at them.
I kind of wanted to post it somewhere~

-it starts with the question 'does everyone deserve equal rights?'

(11:22:40 PM) Winters: Well like
(11:22:48 PM) Winters: Lets say hospitals are a right
(11:22:57 PM) Winters: Theresa here "has diabetes"
(11:23:06 PM) Winters: eats cookies and cakes every day
(11:23:09 PM) Winters: A lot of them
(11:23:14 PM) Winters: SShe shouldn't be allowed
(11:23:17 PM) Winters: Fuck her
(11:24:32 PM) Chaosoo0: hahah , very specific people maybe. but nothing that could be properly monitered. and Im still not sure I agree with that.
(11:24:45 PM) Winters: Yeah
(11:24:49 PM) Winters: And I do
(11:25:25 PM) Chaosoo0: Besides, its none of anyone elses business what she eats. she eats what she wunts! You cant punish her for making her own choices even if she SUCKS
(11:26:01 PM) Chaosoo0: In some ways I do agree though.
(11:26:02 PM) Winters: I'm also assuming taxpayers pay for this shit.
(11:26:06 PM) Winters: HHealth care and all
(11:26:13 PM) Chaosoo0: shes also a tax payer, though.
(11:26:45 PM) Winters: I don't support abuse of a system
(11:27:03 PM) Winters: When it harms like all others
(11:27:52 PM) Chaosoo0: Yeah, I agree with that part. But I also don't like the idea of shunning somebody from common rights even if they cant take care of themselves.
(11:28:27 PM) Winters: Or at least her taxes should go through the roof. Same as smokers who refuse to stop when its killing them
(11:28:56 PM) Chaosoo0: I can get behind that idea.
(11:29:34 PM) Chaosoo0: That way, it promotes caring about the system. and will probably make it better overall.
(11:30:10 PM) Winters: A kid can "not deserve" ice cream
(11:30:12 PM) Winters: AndAnd get it anyway
(11:30:36 PM) Winters: Its poisonous to his life and the system though
(11:31:01 PM) Chaosoo0: Hm?
(11:31:27 PM) Winters: If you let them get away with that its poison to the system
(11:31:34 PM) Winters: YYou're letting the cancer thrive
(11:31:46 PM) Winters: Why you like cancer and unhappiness breh?
(11:32:55 PM) Chaosoo0: Psh, a system who turns people out is also poisoned.
(11:33:15 PM) Winters: Is not
(11:33:27 PM) Winters: Spartans were badass cause they cut out weakness
(11:33:30 PM) Chaosoo0: Especially when a perfectly fine idea like the tax one exists
(11:33:46 PM) Chaosoo0: Thats more like strengthening the weakness.
(11:34:02 PM) Winters: That's unpoisoning it
(11:34:11 PM) Winters: There was no weakness. They culled the weakness
(11:35:42 PM) Chaosoo0: I'm also ok with healthcare not being a right, I guess. But if it is one, it should be equal.
(11:35:59 PM) Chaosoo0: as in, everyone should have access to it.
(11:36:34 PM) Winters: Free healthcare should only go to those who don't go out of their way to worsen their condition.
(11:36:37 PM) Winters: Imo
(11:37:33 PM) Chaosoo0: But how would you tell if someone is worsening it, and their condition just isnt worsening? Im sure there would be really shitty mistakes,
(11:38:47 PM) Chaosoo0: Unless you start spying on the people using healthcare. which is totally worse,
(11:39:07 PM) Chaosoo0: and a bit wierd xD
(11:39:47 PM) Winters: like
(11:39:52 PM) Winters: EaEating cake all day
(11:39:57 PM) Winters: OrOr smoking 3 packs a day
(11:40:27 PM) Winters: If someone tries repeatedly to kill themselves you can't dedicate your life to preventing it
(11:40:35 PM) Winters: You can try but at a point its futile
(11:40:49 PM) Chaosoo0: Im not even interested in saving people who kill themselves. I think its their right to die if they want to.
(11:41:15 PM) Chaosoo0: unless theyre like "SAVE MEE!"
(11:43:09 PM) Winters: And stuffing their dace with cake and smoking is killing themselves
(11:43:15 PM) Winters: Face*
(11:43:34 PM) Chaosoo0: It's good to save on resources and money, but its bad to cut people out in order to do it, even if they're lagging behind, is what I think. Even though I really don't like those people at all.
(11:43:49 PM) Chaosoo0: Yeah, but then theyre like "SAVE MEE"
(11:44:52 PM) Chaosoo0: "Rights arent something you deserve, theyre something you get" is a good way to put it.
(11:45:44 PM) Winters: Actually they're more like I WANT TO CONTINUE MY SELF DESTRUCTIVE LIFESTYLE AT OTHERS EXPENSE
(11:46:00 PM) Chaosoo0: Yeah, it is like that.
(11:47:02 PM) Chaosoo0: But people abuse the system in waaaay worse ways, and its still generally permitted. So purging that area seems like a crappy idea.
(11:48:23 PM) Chaosoo0: though, if the people who don't get it , are also exempt from paying taxes, then I guess Id be cool with it.
(11:48:34 PM) Chaosoo0: they could use that money to buy their health care themselves, or they could die.
(11:49:01 PM) Winters: They should purge the other abuse too
(11:50:27 PM) Chaosoo0: Yeah, they should.
(11:50:50 PM) Chaosoo0: But this one can be solves in better ways, so, Im not up for purging it.
(11:52:06 PM) Winters: I should be able to elect to not have my share of the taxes spent on self destructive people
(11:52:16 PM) Winters: Marriage and voting and all should be for everyone though
(11:54:07 PM) Winters: I don't even see that as punishing
(11:54:10 PM) Chaosoo0: I like the idea of them being excluded from a portion of taxes. (All taxes doesnt really make sense) and losng their health care.
(11:54:19 PM) Winters: I see it as not rewarding
(11:54:24 PM) Chaosoo0: ahh,
(11:55:02 PM) Chaosoo0: rewarding with life! xD
(11:59:00 PM) Chaosoo0: that's another part of it that doesn't sit right with me. "Sorry fuck you, we don't approve of you so we'll help everyone for free but you" , Really Im fine with it not being free at all. I dont think Im entitled to free things. (it comes out of taxes but you know what I mean ) But if they're going to make it a right, then its a right.
(06/03/2013 12:00:09 AM) Chaosoo0: besides, what if some poor ass mofo is stuck on the ramen diet, extremely unhealthy but hes pretty much homeless. S'not the guys fault. he doesnt deserve to be shunned if everyone else gets all the attention they need.
(12:00:10 AM) Winters: Kay. There was this lady bitching about how a pharmacy there was an offer. Walk certain amounts for discounts. She said its discriminating cause she didn't want to walk and against her rights
(12:00:21 AM) Winters: Same thing
(12:00:38 AM) Winters: You have access to the rights as long as you fulfill criteria of TRYING
(12:01:53 AM) Chaosoo0: Not really the same thing. The other thing is literally a reward, not a right. and it's to get a discount. It's not to continue living.
(12:04:04 AM) Winters: Identical!
(12:04:11 AM) Chaosoo0: Not identical!
(12:04:29 AM) Winters: Yuh huh
(12:04:33 AM) Chaosoo0: making someone do something to get a reward, and making someone -not- do something to stay alive, is completely different.
(12:06:00 AM) Chaosoo0: not that I don't think your way is fair. I just don't think it's right.
(12:06:35 AM) Winters: Its the same in all the ways that matter. Fulfilling a requirement to get access
(12:07:22 AM) Chaosoo0: But what if someone cant fulfil the requirement, such as the ramen bum I mentioned before. Sure he's not helping people, but its not his fault hes harming them, and they shouldnt just cut him out.
(12:07:44 AM) Chaosoo0: But you aren't going to be able to prove theres a difference between him and cake lady.
(12:08:32 AM) Winters: Ramen bum?
(12:08:55 AM) Chaosoo0: Ill repost
(12:08:59 AM) Chaosoo0: besides, what if some poor ass mofo is stuck on the ramen diet, extremely unhealthy but hes pretty much homeless. S'not the guys fault. he doesnt deserve to be shunned if everyone else gets all the attention they need.
(12:10:45 AM) Winters: Keywords
(12:10:50 AM) Winters: NNot the guys fault
(12:11:02 AM) Winters: And we have foodstamps and shit
(12:11:19 AM) Winters: And we should have a system to help him get work
(12:12:15 AM) Chaosoo0: We should also have a system to get unhealthy people healthy if so.
(12:12:45 AM) Chaosoo0: Ramen bum can have a job as cake ladies personal dietitian. B)
(12:13:18 AM) Chaosoo0: But, what my actual point was, is that I doubt you could legally make a case for there being a difference between the two.
(12:13:29 AM) Winters: YEAH WE SHOULD
(12:13:40 AM) Winters: And if they CHOOSE TO SHUN THAT HELP
(12:13:45 AM) Winters: TThey should lose access
(12:13:52 AM) Winters: Cake lady
(12:14:00 AM) Chaosoo0: Yeah, pending theres actually a system like that in place.
(12:14:15 AM) Chaosoo0: But they still shouldnt have to pay a portion of the taxes >.>; equivalent to healthcare.
(12:16:58 AM) Winters: Self destructive? Sure. Unless they want to pay like quadruple
(12:17:13 AM) Chaosoo0: Hm?
(12:17:47 AM) Chaosoo0: ehh
(12:18:58 AM) Chaosoo0: To be honest I think one of the uses of taxes is to keep people from banding together as a people. So Im still against cutting them out at all. I also think cutting out illegals and such is right either.
(12:19:11 AM) Winters: Dave up here is pissed he's charged 5 extra bucks for health insurance for smoking
(12:19:37 AM) Chaosoo0: Well, smoking is his right, he should be able to do it for the price of the ciggarettes. I'd be pissed too.
(12:21:23 AM) Chaosoo0: I dont see why anyone wouldnt be pissed about it,
(12:23:57 AM) Winters: Cause its a health risk
(12:23:59 AM) Chaosoo0: Of course, these are only my believes within the system. My full beliefs are that taxes should be voluntary, and this world can go to hell if they can't figure out how to live responsibly without masters >>;
(12:24:19 AM) Chaosoo0: So what? Hes risking his health to smoke. AND he has to pay 5 bucks?
(12:24:22 AM) Winters: So you don't think there should be roads orrrr?
(12:24:26 AM) Chaosoo0: No no,
(12:24:40 AM) Winters: That money has to come from somewhere
(12:24:45 AM) Chaosoo0: There still can be as long as people realize they have a resonsibility to take care of this world.
(12:24:45 AM) Winters: AlAll roads are pay to use?
(12:25:01 AM) Chaosoo0: it would be dependant on people actually caring about it. and if they dont- well there you go
(12:25:02 AM) Winters: So you're going to build them?
(12:25:10 AM) Chaosoo0: everyones fucked the world over, but at least they chose to do it xd;
(12:25:27 AM) Chaosoo0: if I was someone who specialized in building them, Id do it. >>; but no. Im not. so I wouldnt.
(12:26:12 AM) Winters: So someone else should for free?
(12:26:13 AM) Chaosoo0: Like, at the very core of things I think the world absolutely cant run without government and shit. But, I think it should probably try to anyway.
(12:26:29 AM) Chaosoo0: or not without government, nessicarily,
(12:26:47 AM) Chaosoo0: No, theyd recieve money from the -voluntary- taxes
(12:27:30 AM) Winters: Who would pay that?
(12:27:34 AM) Chaosoo0: but , thats why Im argueing about how to improve the current system, because theres no point in taking the system completely away when its such a bad idea.
(12:27:41 AM) Chaosoo0: But, I'd still do it if I had the chance to~
(12:27:46 AM) Winters: Most people would be like. Nah. I'll use them but I ain't paying
(12:28:05 AM) Chaosoo0: yeah, you read what Ive been writing right?
(12:29:18 AM) Chaosoo0: I realize how disastrous it would be, but, it's what I'd prefer. people would really have to learn to make life work and not abuse shit. or the world would go to hell. I think it would create a much better people, if it ever came around to working.
(12:29:24 AM) Chaosoo0: a big if.
(12:29:45 AM) Winters: What if a few people donated and it wasnt enough? Now they were selfless and get fucked
(12:30:00 AM) Winters: There's this idea where everyone cuts back and it helps everyone
(12:30:05 AM) Chaosoo0: The world would fall apart, is what would happen,
(12:30:18 AM) Chaosoo0: But, I said that
(12:30:25 AM) Winters: People can't do that
(12:30:28 AM) Winters: People seriously can't be trusted
(12:30:33 AM) Winters: Vergil was right!
(12:30:57 AM) Chaosoo0: yeah they definately cant xD but, fuck that.
(12:31:09 AM) Chaosoo0: Freedom, motha fucka.
(12:31:17 AM) Chaosoo0: For ruin or otherwise!
(12:31:20 AM) Winters: What we have is better
(12:31:30 AM) Winters: Humanity would be dead
(12:31:45 AM) Chaosoo0: Humanity would deserve to be dead,
(12:32:11 AM) Chaosoo0: or it would survive, and be waaaay different in some way.
(12:32:14 AM) Winters: Not everyone. But it'd happen anyway
(12:32:29 AM) Winters: The portion that deserves to die would die
(12:32:37 AM) Chaosoo0: I figure eventually the population would shrink and things would be come managable
(12:32:43 AM) Chaosoo0: But, someone would just start up a government again eventually.
(12:32:44 AM) Winters: AnAnd that's the ones I'm saying don't deserve free health care and shit
(12:33:07 AM) Winters: All you're saying NOW is what I said but with the death of way more good innocent people
(12:33:23 AM) Chaosoo0: ehh, I dont think theres a 'deserves to die' though, I mean if humanity cant survive and dies, then techncally it deserves to die.
(12:33:28 AM) Chaosoo0: but you can only say that when its already dead.
(12:33:44 AM) Winters: You cut off the disease
(12:34:36 AM) Winters: If someone runs around trying their hardest to help people and dies as a result then they deserved it? Even if it means fatass smoker lives?
(12:35:30 AM) Chaosoo0: Besides, just because something saves more lives and saves more money, and makes life more comfortable for most, doesnt mean I need to think it's right, or the way things should be done. It's "better" as in more efficient but, I don't go for it at all.
(12:36:00 AM) Chaosoo0: Well, I said you can only -say- someone deserves to die when they die. And not before hand. its not like you -need- to say it.
(12:36:11 AM) Winters: So you think everyone should go around killing each other?
(12:36:17 AM) Chaosoo0: But if someone gives their lives to help others, he was a rockin dude.
(12:36:30 AM) Chaosoo0: Did I say I think everyone should go around killing eachother?
(12:37:04 AM) Chaosoo0: I said a lot of extreme things but I definately didnt say that. if they did that it would be completely their choice.
(12:37:05 AM) Winters: You said if someone saves lives that doesn't make them right
(12:37:11 AM) Winters: So the opposite must be true
(12:37:17 AM) Chaosoo0: The opposite doesnt need to be true.
(12:37:35 AM) Chaosoo0: saving lives -can- make people right, but it isnt always right.
(12:37:49 AM) Chaosoo0: like in the holocaust when doing all that crazy medical research saved tons of lives later.
(12:37:56 AM) Winters: We're assuming they're innocents.
(12:37:59 AM) Winters: Not murderers
(12:38:18 AM) Chaosoo0: What do you mean?
(12:38:31 AM) Chaosoo0: oh
(12:38:45 AM) Chaosoo0: well denying someone health care can be viewed as un-innocent. depends on your perspective
(12:39:11 AM) Chaosoo0: really its a matter of what you think is right or wrong. But, I dont think things like that should be left up to mere opinion.
(12:39:39 AM) Chaosoo0: You dont see cutting inefficient people out of the system as bad. because it causes good.
(12:39:51 AM) Chaosoo0: But, I think it's bad that causes good. which is just as well as being bad .
(12:40:10 AM) Winters: Nah
(12:40:16 AM) Chaosoo0: Hm?
(12:40:32 AM) Winters: Most net good wins
(12:40:38 AM) Chaosoo0: hahah
(12:41:40 AM) Chaosoo0: A valid opinion so I cant really argue. I just disagree. Sometimes you need to do good things, and face evil because of it.
(12:41:45 AM) Chaosoo0: or, face bad.
(12:41:58 AM) Winters: Okay
(12:42:01 AM) Winters: TrTrain on the tracks
(12:42:09 AM) Winters: EiEither hits 5 guys or 1 guy
(12:42:10 AM) Winters: WWhat do you do?
(12:42:26 AM) Chaosoo0: be more specific.
(12:42:39 AM) Chaosoo0: Do I have to kill this guy to stop the train? and why?
(12:42:49 AM) Winters: You can flip a switch
(12:42:49 AM) Chaosoo0: why are the other people going to die?
(12:42:55 AM) Winters: AAnd send it down one way
(12:43:10 AM) Winters: cause it has to go down one side
(12:43:17 AM) Winters: They're all stuck
(12:43:19 AM) Chaosoo0: So, if I dont flip the switch, it hits 5 guys. and if I do, it hits 1 guy?
(12:43:23 AM) Chaosoo0: But I dont know anything about them.
(12:43:25 AM) Winters: Yes
(12:43:31 AM) Winters: Doesn't matter
(12:44:12 AM) Chaosoo0: hm,
(12:44:26 AM) Winters: Gimmie a sec. Battery change
(12:44:38 AM) Chaosoo0: k,
(12:45:16 AM) Chaosoo0: I think I'd be really tempted to not touch the switch. but I cant say for certain I wouldnt save the 5 instead.
(12:45:32 AM) Chaosoo0: It really depends on my current state of mind ?
(12:45:54 AM) Chaosoo0: Though, I also dont see this question as relevant, so far at least.
(12:46:09 AM) Chaosoo0: I mean, who am I go kill that 1 guy. :P i dont even know him.
(12:46:22 AM) Chaosoo0: and , the other 5 will die if I dont stop it, but they were going to die if I wasnt there.
(12:47:01 AM) Chaosoo0: So, is touching the switch even possibly the right course of action?
(12:47:48 AM) Chaosoo0: I dont know who any of them are, so I dont even get a chance to judge on bias. which Id probably do in that situation usually. cause if Ive gotta make the choice, it should be as informed a decision as possible.
(12:47:51 AM) Chaosoo0: -nods-
(12:49:22 AM) Chaosoo0: oh, and it would matter a lot if I thought not touching the switch was cowardly or not in the situation. but I dont know how Id feel.
(12:56:10 AM) Winters: But you are there
(12:56:17 AM) Winters: SoSo you choose to kill the 5?
(12:56:58 AM) Chaosoo0: Im going to go with Take no action. So yes. but realistically Im not sure.
(12:58:51 AM) Winters: Same scenario but now flipping it kills the 5
(12:59:45 AM) Chaosoo0: Same answer. most likely I'd leave it be.
(01:00:26 AM) Chaosoo0: Though, did someone set this up? Becuase if so, it would be a murder attempt and the morality of the situation could change. I'd probably save the 5 either way then. >>; I know Im oddly specific about this. but,
(01:00:54 AM) Chaosoo0: -shrug-
(01:01:15 AM) Chaosoo0: I dont think 5 people are necessarily better than 1, or visa versa.
(01:01:47 AM) Winters: Kay why are you making these choices?
(01:01:47 AM) Winters: YYour morality is important for the next part
(01:03:20 AM) Chaosoo0: if it were a murder attempt Id be making the choice to save more people because stopping someone else from making a choice that imposes upon what you want is fine with me.
(01:03:30 AM) Chaosoo0: But if they just happen to be there
(01:03:35 AM) Chaosoo0: and so was I,
(01:04:09 AM) \ Winters: Okay. Now say you're a doctor. You can treat fatty mcsmoker 5 times or 5 people who try to live healthy to the best of their abilities. What do you do?
(01:04:14 AM) Chaosoo0: Then Im not really opposing someone elses choice, Im...deciding who I think is worth more. the 5 or the 1.
(01:04:24 AM) Chaosoo0: and I dont know the answer. so, theres no point in acting.
(01:04:41 AM) Chaosoo0: oh, I thought you were asking me to specify my reasons more^
(01:05:28 AM) Chaosoo0: Well, first off I would be heavily opposed to people telling me that I couldnt treat anyone. and would attempt to illegally if I was a doctor. cause I assume Id be in the business to help people and not just for money.
(01:05:54 AM) Chaosoo0: But, in a scenario where I had to choose, and all that,
(01:06:07 AM) Chaosoo0: Id take the 5 healthy,
(01:06:11 AM) Chaosoo0: No contest
(01:06:59 AM) Chaosoo0: But, I also would hate being a doctor^
(01:08:04 AM) Chaosoo0: -if I were some guy who had to pick which patience a doctor could treat, but could only pick 5 Id also pick the healthy ones.
(01:09:52 AM) Chaosoo0: Assuming I couldnt interview them and get to know them all specifically xD
(01:11:09 AM) Winters: Its a resource thing
(01:11:15 AM) Chaosoo0: ah -nods-
(01:11:52 AM) Chaosoo0: same answer. the healthies.
(01:12:51 AM) Winters: That's all I'm saying
(01:13:02 AM) Winters: DoDon't wast resources on those who abuse it
(01:13:11 AM) Chaosoo0: but, that wasnt that you asked me.
(01:13:22 AM) Chaosoo0: You said the resources were absolutely unavailable in my scenario.
(01:15:01 AM) Chaosoo0: But, like I said I do get what you mean, like, I swear I do. I just feel differently about it.
(01:15:26 AM) Chaosoo0: I've thought it out really carefully, and didnt even always see it this way.
(01:16:39 AM) Chaosoo0: Obviously if I ran the world Id make a ton of really bad choices. xD But Ive got no desire to actually run the world so that's fine.
(01:17:16 AM) Chaosoo0: or rather, if you run the world you will inevitably have to make a ton of bad choices pretty much no matter what. which just isnt appealing.
(01:21:22 AM) Winters: But that's the same
(01:21:29 AM) Winters: ThThere ARE limited resources
(01:21:36 AM) Winters: ThThey shouldn't get free healthcare
(01:21:39 AM) Winters: ThThey may buy it
(01:22:22 AM) Chaosoo0: Everyone should probably buy it. Not that that's any fun either.
(01:22:39 AM) Chaosoo0: I personally have enjoyed the benefit of cheap healthcare quite a bit this year :P
(01:23:20 AM) Chaosoo0: Like, if we want free health care, I think its only right to let everyone in on it. But if you want us all to pay, thats fine too.
(01:24:17 AM) Winters: I think taxes cover it for the majority though
(01:24:28 AM) Winters: Unless they are actively hurting themselves
(01:25:31 AM) Chaosoo0: I think if healthcare exists to help the sick and hurt, the cause of the illness isnt relevant.
(01:26:44 AM) Chaosoo0: though all in all, 5 dollars for smoking isnt horrible. I'd still be pissed about it, infact I still think its really really stupid. but it also 'isnt that bad'
(01:31:55 AM) Winters: no no no
(01:31:57 AM) Winters: TThey get fat
(01:32:00 AM) Winters: TheThey get diabetes
(01:32:03 AM) Winters: TThey get care
(01:32:19 AM) Winters: ThThey get fat get diabetes and EAT COOKIES LIKE A PIG
(01:32:19 AM) Winters: Gone
(01:32:31 AM) Winters: If they aren't helping THEMSELVES
(01:32:59 AM) Chaosoo0: I see where you're comming from and all,
(01:33:10 AM) Chaosoo0: I really do :P
(01:33:54 AM) Chaosoo0: but as a society, just suck it up. you cant just pitch people out but make them pay like theyre part of it anyway, and still make them follow your other rules.
(01:34:01 AM) Chaosoo0: Its not cool.
(01:34:16 AM) Chaosoo0: If you make being included mandatory, then you gotta suck it up.
(01:34:44 AM) Winters: Sure. They just pay extravagant fees!
(01:35:10 AM) Chaosoo0: Not much different than paying in the first place
(01:35:18 AM) Chaosoo0: So , same argument.
(01:39:10 AM) Chaosoo0: Besides,if I had to choose to take healthcare away from some people Id rather refuse complete douchebags. There are some fat unhealthy people that I like xD and there are a lot of really healthy jerks.
(01:40:12 AM) Chaosoo0: I realize i wouldnt be basing my decisions on anything related to health care. but, if it's just mandatory resource management, that's how I'd do it.
(01:41:49 AM) Chaosoo0: "someone made me choose who gets healthcare so, I guess I'll talk to you all for 10 minutes and then choose. Say hello to healthcare speed dating service!"

(01:47:53 AM) Winters: If they're eating the cakes
(01:47:55 AM) Winters: ThThey're douches
(01:48:09 AM) Winters: "Why not eat this? Taxes will cover it!"
(01:48:33 AM) Chaosoo0: Its not like they arent buying the cae
(01:48:35 AM) Chaosoo0: cake
(01:48:36 AM) Chaosoo0: and if they buy it
(01:48:39 AM) Chaosoo0: they can fucking eat it
(01:48:55 AM) Chaosoo0: god given right to eat a cake that is legally yours.
(01:49:02 AM) Chaosoo0: and you shouldnt recieve a penalty for it
(01:49:06 AM) Chaosoo0: even if you're a total jerk.
(01:50:56 AM) Winters: Whatevs. I don't agree you should help give the heroin addict more junk
(01:51:00 AM) Winters: But whatevs breh.
(01:51:39 AM) Chaosoo0: I think people should be able to buy heroine if they want to. and if it is killing them, you should help them.
(01:51:43 AM) Chaosoo0: well
(01:52:05 AM) Chaosoo0: if you're a doctor you should. and you should at least try to get him some help, as a person. but you arent obligated to.
(01:52:49 AM) Winters: And if he runs off and buys more heroin abusing your help to do it?
(01:54:01 AM) Chaosoo0: Then he likes heroine. and hes doing it to himself, but its not like you should just leave em to die if you can help em, (if your career is about helping people )
(01:54:21 AM) Winters: So other non heroin addicts should pay for his habit?
(01:54:26 AM) Chaosoo0: I mean in the end, I dont think doctors should NEED to treat people.
(01:54:41 AM) Chaosoo0: like if doctors are all "GET HIM OUT OF HERE! NO!"
(01:54:48 AM) Chaosoo0: then, hes out of luck,
(01:55:32 AM) Winters: I believe giving the self destructives "help" you are hurting them
(01:55:34 AM) Winters: LLong run
(01:55:45 AM) Winters: I don't think you should be running around hurting people
(01:55:59 AM) Chaosoo0: I think keeping them alive is different than giving them help in a way that hurts them.
(01:56:23 AM) Chaosoo0: because, otherwise theyre just gunna die. and all.

(01:58:37 AM) Michael Winters: I don't wanna throw medicine into a pit when there are sick who can use it
(01:59:21 AM) Chaosoo0: Then people should probably pay for healthcare.
(01:59:39 AM) Winters: They would through taxes
(01:59:45 AM) Winters: LLet's not call it a right then.
(02:00:14 AM) Winters: ItIts a thing that people who care about themselves get via taxes and the self destructive don't even if its part of their taxes.
(02:00:40 AM) Winters: Except they would
(02:00:49 AM) Winters: RiRight up until they piss in the doctors face
(02:01:38 AM) Chaosoo0: I see what you mean , but I don't agree with it. even if you have to judge the people you save, its not even right to do it based on what care they take of themselves
(02:01:48 AM) Chaosoo0: actually thats only half efficient.
(02:02:19 AM) Chaosoo0: you could be hindering plenty of people who could bring some great stuff into the world.
(02:03:06 AM) Winters: If they don't care about themselves I'm sure they don't care about others
(02:03:12 AM) Chaosoo0: Some people have shitty habbits they dont want to break. doesnt mean their worthless. some are, some arent.
(02:03:29 AM) Chaosoo0: Do they need to care about others? theyre paying taxes whether they like it or not.

(02:06:02 AM) Winters: Then they don't "deserve" it
(02:06:02 AM) \ Winters: If they HAVE to get it as a consequence fine whatever
(02:07:01 AM) Winters: You will never convince me that someone who is constantly forcing others to do everything for them and then ruin their lives just to ask for help again deserves that help
(02:07:17 AM) Chaosoo0: ok, your opinion is they dont deserve it, and mine is that it isnt something that people deserve or not.
(02:07:21 AM) Chaosoo0: plus Im fine with no convincing you,
(02:07:23 AM) Chaosoo0: not^
(02:08:03 AM) Winters: People like goggles who throw shit away over and over when they receive help don't deserve it. Period.
(02:08:58 AM) Chaosoo0: I think if everyone in one big group is getting help, deserving isnt a factor when you're part of that group.
(02:09:27 AM) Winters: I would just kick them out of the group
(02:10:30 AM) Chaosoo0: Works for me. Id like it a lot if there wasnt one mandatory group.

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Post Re: Anarchy Vs Efficiency and much much more.
Winters is what I call a blind perfectionist, his point of viwe represents those who don't listen but get controlled by their strong inner critique and super-ego.
Their anger gets better of them cause of frustration of iperfection in them as also in others. People like that rise the bar too high for themselves and also for the rest of the world. His sense of one and only righteous path makes his vision / perspective on reality very narrowed.
Winters states the oblivious, that people aren't really equal, but he doesn't understand that they should be treated as such since it's impossible to measure as much someone is really worth.

(btw Spartans weren't really so great, people belive too much in what 300 movie showed. Efficient, survival of the fittest thou they were more corrupted in many other ways.)

I will skip part about taxes cause it's pointless. People are selfish creatures because of our indyviduality, but also weak as single units, so we can't live happily in perfect society like those created by bugs or in s-f books, but also we will always have depend on each other in many ways since working for full independence and beeing selfsuficient on your own or in small groups would consume most of ones life and energy. More people cooperate - easier it gets to live for them.
To change anything first we would have to get rid of money and core of our current system but it's too early for us as race, we're still too savage (wonder if it will ever change...).
Shit, you can't tell what's right or wrong for everyone. To be honest I don't even think that those things really exist, what's good for you can do bad for someone else. To tell what is what shouldn't be measured only trough the outcome of your actions.
Besides let's say that you kill or just let useless people die by not helping them when they are in need, it would be good for society as system but in reality people would start to live in fear of beeing judged as useless.
About killing and train it's all down to probability, where's bigger probablitity that at least one person is worth (in any way you prefer) saving? 5 to 1, more people always wins since it has bigger probability.

In case of beeing a doctor there's a certain vow you must make, to help all people, if it's life-threatening situation, it comes to probability of surviving so healthy people would be logical choice, but if its not, then as doctor you take those with worse overall condition since it needs to be treated sooner, then smokers and fat-asses would be first since healthy people can wait longer.
Chaos, if doctor wasn't obligated to help people this proffesion would be pointless since that's what he is beeing paid for, its unreasonable unless that person is in unbearable pain and this state is uncurable.
You didn't took mental state to account, many people tend to hurt themselves but this state can change in time and then by helping them at that time in hurting themselves or not helping in treating to effect of their actions you acted just stupid.

I would call this conversation Passive Observer vs Fanatical Crussader if you ask me.
From my perspective you're both right at some point but not entirely.

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Post Re: Anarchy Vs Efficiency and much much more.
Bravo! *Claps*
I really enjoyed reading that.

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Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:25 am
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Post Re: Anarchy Vs Efficiency and much much more.
I enjoy reading interesting conversations.
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