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 There must be Justice. 
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Post There must be Justice.
I generally try to stay away from the serious section. Really there's just not much I'm passionate about (well, except the legalization of weed as a not only logical but moral necessity) and quite frankly, I don't give a damn about the opinions of the majority of you all. However as reality decided to kick me in the nuts today, I've felt compelled to get on a soap box. And as such, here's a little bit of philosophy from Dark Jester.

There must be Justice. There simply must be. I'm not talking about a criminal getting sent to prison, an innocent person being acquitted of their crimes, no. I'm speaking about Justice with a capital J. Call it divine retribution, cosmic balance, karma, God (I'd just like to take this time to note that I'm getting a bit pissed off at the word changer changing that word to Klacid...it's getting really fucking lame really fucking fast) or whatever else you want...regardless, the existence of such an intangible force MUST exist. In the absence of such a force, then absolutely nothing has meaning...we all live in the Matrix. Society is nothing but the world that's been pulled over your eyes to blind you from The truth. "What Truth?" The Truth that there are no rules, there is no society. There's no authority and no one man is greater than another for anything. All human thought, all human rationality, all human moral and ethical beliefs and views become completely pointless. If there is no greater Justice in the universe then all these things become nothing but human constructs, fictitious concepts that humans assert with a self-proclaimed yet extremely false sense of importance. Without Justice, then Bobby Gaylor was correct: we are nothing more than animals. Nothing you do matters, there are no consequences for anything. What, because some guy has a badge and a gun, he gets to tell you what to do? He gets to write on a piece of paper saying that you owe society more pieces of paper that signify that you actually have something. What the fuck is money anyways? Nothing but another false object that society tells you you need. Without a greater Justice in the universe, you might as well shit in your hand, smear it on the judge's face, masturbate all over the jury, and slit the security guard's throat. What are they gonna do? Throw you in jail? Ohhhh noooooo. 3 meals a day, no responsibility other than those delegated to you to keep you busy day-by-day, and free cable...all at tax payer's expense.

This brings me to my next point...a better description of the Justice I'm referring to. Here I am sitting in my car at an intersection. My side and the side opposite from me have a stop-sign where as the street crossing my street doesn't. I pull up an check my ways, dude's coming from the right. Despite his not using a blinker, I just KNOW he's going to turn right (telepathy really isn't that big of a deal, everyone can see into the future if you read the signs). Sure enough, the cock-smoker gradually slows down and turns right without signaling...had he signaled, I would have been able to cross the street before he turned. But hey, that's the price you pay for being a safe driver and there's always assholes on the road: fucking deal with it. The fucker turns and I start to go. All of a sudden there's this fucking whore in an SUV on the side opposite from me (she wasn't there in the beginning) and she cuts me off turning left as I'm trying to cross the street...damn near causing me to be t-boned and she just drives off on her merry way.

THERE HAS TO BE FUCKING JUSTICE! That's where the rage comes from. Shit like that happens and there isn't any - fucking - thing you can do about it. It's just a kick in the nuts by the universe and you're supposed to just sit there and say "Thank you sir, may I have another?" Something bad has to happen to bitches like that. The universe has to return the favor to assholes who just go about their lives pissing people off and not giving a second thought to it. There just has to be Justice, otherwise it's a free for all. All human morality is thrown out the window if there's no greater Justice. Just like how currency is worthless unless there's something of actual value to back it up, human beliefs on what is right and wrong are worthless if there's nothing of actual value to back them up. If people get to go through life doing shit like that with no consequences, no pain in the ass in return, then why even bother being nice? Fuck'em all with a 40 bottle. Murder all you want, it's survival of the fittest. If you're being nice you're not playing the game right and you're gonna get fucked...fucking, CBP fucked...

So for a third time, there must be some form of greater Justice in our existence. Without such Justice our lives are meaningless, everything you say and do is meaningless, everything man has built is nothing but a self-delusion. All a man needs is a sharp stick with which to spear prey and a woman with which to mate. Those are the only rules that apply: eatting and fucking. Everything else is free will, and unless you use that free will to be an asshole you'll ALWAYS be in last fucking place.



























































And THAT'S why I smoke pot.

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Thu May 28, 2009 8:22 pm
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Post Re: There must be Justice.
Interesting. Such sentiments (articulated a bit differently) were the basis of C.S. Lewis's conversion from atheism to Christianity, as described in his book Mere Christianity. He elaborated on some of the problem, its implications, and various philosophies surrounding it a good bit more in his philosophical book The Abolition of Man.

From the way you speak it sounds almost as if you haven't had to encounter, at least not in an obvious way, moral relativists. They are ones who would disagree with you about there being any kind of real Justice, and many of them, when pressed to it (some when not) would say "shit, yea, doesn't matter, do whatever you want, nothing means anything except in your own mind", others would try to give a rather weak dodge of the matter or claim that inside your own mind is all that matters anyway (unpack that sometimes and you'll come to the conclusion you did before of such a view that it doesn't actually matter all still).

But yes, Justice. Contemplated by philosophers from centuries, questioned by Socrates in Plato's Republic, elaborated on by later philosophers, theologians, and even politicians, and having some concept in all known societies and cultures. While not all these areas agree on the particulars of the mandates of Justice, (relativists aside) all agree on a concept of Justice, and in fact many of the general commands of Justice are found in common around the world (elaborated upon to a great extent in Lewis's The Abolition of Man and its Appendix). Many call it a proof of God, or the Divine. Many say it is dependent on God or divinities in order to have any real weight and meaning.

Anyway, I agree there is Justice. I also believe that we we all worked harder to act according to the guidelines of Justice, and create a world that has a strong grounding in Justice, we would all be alot better off and alot happier. Even with the differences of opinion on what in the details is just, if we all acknowledge that there is a Justice, and that there is a bottom line right answer on those details (some maybe more important than others, but all of some importance) we would all be better off.

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Fri May 29, 2009 1:22 am
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Post Re: There must be Justice.
While I'm nowhere near as eloquent or learned as n0th1n, I'll try and contribute what I can to this thread.

I believe that Justice DOES in fact exist, although it's hardly ever obvious and requires outcomes to be looked at from several different perspectives. For example, in the instance with that fat bitch (she was obviously fat) in the SUV who cut you off and that other guy; you feel that you should have been able to cross the street and in being nice to the wrong people, you were denied what you were entitled, and in that respect you were "cheated". However, there's silver lining to all this; both those people are awful drivers and are likely to either piss off the wrong person or crash their respective cars (possibly into each other) later on in the future. Though they didn't crash into you, their days of shitty driving are numbered.

You can also take solace in the fact that this experience has made you not only warier of assholes on the road but life in general, prompting you to make this rant of a thread which I can only imagine was incredibly therapeutic :)


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Post Re: There must be Justice.
Hammm wrote:
While I'm nowhere near as eloquent or learned as n0th1n, I'll try and contribute what I can to this thread.

I believe that Justice DOES in fact exist, although it's hardly ever obvious and requires outcomes to be looked at from several different perspectives. For example, in the instance with that fat bitch (she was obviously fat) in the SUV who cut you off and that other guy; you feel that you should have been able to cross the street and in being nice to the wrong people, you were denied what you were entitled, and in that respect you were "cheated". However, there's silver lining to all this; both those people are awful drivers and are likely to either piss off the wrong person or crash their respective cars (possibly into each other) later on in the future. Though they didn't crash into you, their days of shitty driving are numbered.

You can also take solace in the fact that this experience has made you not only warier of assholes on the road but life in general, prompting you to make this rant of a thread which I can only imagine was incredibly therapeutic :)

Hammm, the fact that you actually took the time to read it without bitching about how long it was makes you a fucking badass. I'd thank you nothing, but I don't really know you as well :black

Anyways, the reason I say "there must be justice" is that I would consider myself a Christian. I don't go to church, don't even own a bible, but I do believe in God and Christ and that people should act in a moral way. This is why such assholes as those in the cars that day got to me so much. For starters: I'll fully admit, I'm an angry person. But besides that, there's jack shit you can do about it. They just get to drive off and be on with their life.

It's at situations like this (this wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened, this is just he most recent) where I actually pray that they get in a wreck. This one in particular got to me because, as I said, I damn near got crashed into because of it and all of a sudden I look like the asshole. Anyways, if there is no greater force of justice in the universe, and it's truly just survival of the fittest, then there can't be a God. As a Christian, that's a rather deep shaking of faith. So yes, I try my hardest to believe that they've got theirs coming...somehow, somewhere, some time: they're going to get what's coming to'em...kind like the O'Doile family in Billy Madison. :black

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Post Re: There must be Justice.
Of course, it begs the question WHY do you want them to get into a car accident? Does it solve any of your problems? You could argue that it solves the problem of having one less poor driver on the road, but then that's at the cost of an ambulance and police and whoever else might've been injured/damaged in the accident.

Is justice done when someone else suffers? Or is it done when you feel better? The two are not necessarily the same; you could all get ice cream, at which point I highly doubt you would be as pissed as you are now.


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Post Re: There must be Justice.
Indeed. The actual Christian response would more be pray for the Patience to deal with it and not get angry, even to pray for them (that they become better drivers maybe?).

Anyway, there is Justice, but Justice does not always work the way you want it to, just remember that. Even in the end, Justice will be tempered by Mercy, though in a way I won't venture into, and which will still be Just on a level we probably don't understand. Oh, and don't begrudge if people like them get off for that kind of stuff because of Mercy either. If there wasn't Mercy, almost all of us would be suffering greater tortures than we can image for eternity strictly as a mandate of true Justice. It's not really even necessarily Justice that any of us get a chance (though... then again it might be on that transcendent level where such words become skewed and inadequate).

But, the fact is, you would also have no grounds to be angry, nor to think they did anything "wrong", without there being some actual Justice. There would be no point in making any kind of judgment, even of sentiment, without an attempt to compare it with an objective absolute reality. Relativism excludes such a reality, and in conjunction excludes the possibility of God, as God is also (or specifically) an (or the) objective, absolute, transcendent reality by which all else is measured.

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Post Re: There must be Justice.
While I do agree that the punishment should fit the crime, I also believe that there should still be a punishment of some sort. I'm not saying bad things should happen to bad people alone and that good things should happen to good people alone. All I'm saying is that what goes around has to come back around at some point. Yes, it could be something as simple as three weeks from now they get a flat tire, nail in the side-wall, forcing them to buy a new one for 99 dollars.

As I said: what angers me is the fact that there's nothing that I can specifically do about the situation. It's not like I can hunt them down and kill'em, that wouldn't be justice, that'd be murder. In fact, what would make me extremely happy is if after the bitch cut me off a cop immediately pulled her over for it. Had something like that happen, I get to see the justice actually take place and gain closure on the situation (justice fitting in the balance of the universe, not necessarily the justice the cop actually represents). It's the lack of closure for these situations that get to me the most...knowing that they just get to go on living their asshole life their own asshole way. The thought of that just makes me almost literally sick with rage. That's where this rant/thread came from, and why I scream that there must be Justice: mostly in an attempt to reassure myself because if there isn't then I don't want to live in such a cruel world. (It's an expression, I'm not suicidal over a traffic incident :black )

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Post Re: There must be Justice.
In any case, this should encourage you to drive well and with courtesy so that a) you don't anger someone like they angered you and b) so you don't become like them and have to live with the fact you're joined with them in that way.

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Post Re: There must be Justice.
It's interesting how you equate Justice with Vengeance. I mean, restorative retribution and healing justice are legitimate options and, in the grand scheme of things, are the smarter and more beneficial choice for everyone.

I mean, as a "victim" you have 5 basic needs which are seldom met; Answers (why me?), Recognition of the Wrong (the recognition that they are, in fact, the victim and that the crime isn't their fault. It would be easy to say "you should have been taken advantage and crossed the street" but that hardly resolves anything), Safety (assurance that it won't happen again; this type of thing can't be guarenteed, but you DO need the reassurance), Restitution (the fixing of whatever was broken, the replacing of whatever was stolen, etc) and Significance (the understanding that your world has been changed and the experience has made you stronger and that you need to march onwards)

I fully believe that punishment is not really all too necessary or effective; what would them getting a flat tire accomplish?


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Post Re: There must be Justice.
It would bring balance to the universe. I suppose it'd help to state that I do believe in karma...to an extent. That is I believe that the natural world has (or should have) a way of blessing those who do good while biting those who do bad. For instance: cut someone off and damn near make them get into a wreck, you should in turn end up having some car troubles yourself. As I said I do feel the punishment should fit the crime, and in that sense it's justice. If I had my way and they go on down the road to get smashed by a speeding semi, then that's vengeance. I'm not looking for them to have some kind serious injury, only that they get what they deserve, that their actions come back around. Even if it's as basic as them getting place into my situation themselves at some point: getting cut off and damn near t-boned.

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Post Re: There must be Justice.
Dark Jester wrote:
I generally try to stay away from the serious section. Really there's just not much I'm passionate about (well, except the legalization of weed as a not only logical but moral necessity) and quite frankly, I don't give a damn about the opinions of the majority of you all. However as reality decided to kick me in the nuts today, I've felt compelled to get on a soap box. And as such, here's a little bit of philosophy from Dark Jester.

There must be Justice. There simply must be. I'm not talking about a criminal getting sent to prison, an innocent person being acquitted of their crimes, no. I'm speaking about Justice with a capital J. Call it divine retribution, cosmic balance, karma, God (I'd just like to take this time to note that I'm getting a bit pissed off at the word changer changing that word to Klacid...it's getting really fucking lame really fucking fast) or whatever else you want...regardless, the existence of such an intangible force MUST exist. In the absence of such a force, then absolutely nothing has meaning...we all live in the Matrix. Society is nothing but the world that's been pulled over your eyes to blind you from The truth. "What Truth?" The Truth that there are no rules, there is no society. There's no authority and no one man is greater than another for anything. All human thought, all human rationality, all human moral and ethical beliefs and views become completely pointless. If there is no greater Justice in the universe then all these things become nothing but human constructs, fictitious concepts that humans assert with a self-proclaimed yet extremely false sense of importance. Without Justice, then Bobby Gaylor was correct: we are nothing more than animals. Nothing you do matters, there are no consequences for anything. What, because some guy has a badge and a gun, he gets to tell you what to do? He gets to write on a piece of paper saying that you owe society more pieces of paper that signify that you actually have something. What the fuck is money anyways? Nothing but another false object that society tells you you need. Without a greater Justice in the universe, you might as well shit in your hand, smear it on the judge's face, masturbate all over the jury, and slit the security guard's throat. What are they gonna do? Throw you in jail? Ohhhh noooooo. 3 meals a day, no responsibility other than those delegated to you to keep you busy day-by-day, and free cable...all at tax payer's expense.

This brings me to my next point...a better description of the Justice I'm referring to. Here I am sitting in my car at an intersection. My side and the side opposite from me have a stop-sign where as the street crossing my street doesn't. I pull up an check my ways, dude's coming from the right. Despite his not using a blinker, I just KNOW he's going to turn right (telepathy really isn't that big of a deal, everyone can see into the future if you read the signs). Sure enough, the cock-smoker gradually slows down and turns right without signaling...had he signaled, I would have been able to cross the street before he turned. But hey, that's the price you pay for being a safe driver and there's always assholes on the road: fucking deal with it. The fucker turns and I start to go. All of a sudden there's this fucking whore in an SUV on the side opposite from me (she wasn't there in the beginning) and she cuts me off turning left as I'm trying to cross the street...damn near causing me to be t-boned and she just drives off on her merry way.

THERE HAS TO BE FUCKING JUSTICE! That's where the rage comes from. Shit like that happens and there isn't any - fucking - thing you can do about it. It's just a kick in the nuts by the universe and you're supposed to just sit there and say "Thank you sir, may I have another?" Something bad has to happen to bitches like that. The universe has to return the favor to assholes who just go about their lives pissing people off and not giving a second thought to it. There just has to be Justice, otherwise it's a free for all. All human morality is thrown out the window if there's no greater Justice. Just like how currency is worthless unless there's something of actual value to back it up, human beliefs on what is right and wrong are worthless if there's nothing of actual value to back them up. If people get to go through life doing shit like that with no consequences, no pain in the ass in return, then why even bother being nice? Fuck'em all with a 40 bottle. Murder all you want, it's survival of the fittest. If you're being nice you're not playing the game right and you're gonna get fucked...fucking, CBP fucked...

So for a third time, there must be some form of greater Justice in our existence. Without such Justice our lives are meaningless, everything you say and do is meaningless, everything man has built is nothing but a self-delusion. All a man needs is a sharp stick with which to spear prey and a woman with which to mate. Those are the only rules that apply: eatting and fucking. Everything else is free will, and unless you use that free will to be an asshole you'll ALWAYS be in last fucking place.



























































And THAT'S why I smoke pot.


Well, there is justice. Like Hamm said, those people you're talking about eventually get into car accidents, or they get charged when they are caught in the act. You can speed this up by taking down they're license plate numbers (if possible) There's no real point in geting frustrated about it, because that's life, it may be frustrating, but there's no sense dwelling on it and shortening your life by holding onto resentments. There's bound to be assholes.

And there's more to the criminal justice system than jail. These people who cause accidents or are caught speeding or breaking laws, it ends up on their permement record.

Their insurance bills go up. It also appears on their driver abstract (making it more difficult for them to get certain jobs.)

For example, if some one steals, or commits a violent act, this also appears on their record and that makes it hard for them to get work. These things are in place to effectively prevent these people from gumming up everyone else's life. There is justice. But of course, some things are hard to police, because most people are too indifferent to report things (like me)

And yes, I aggree that society is a made up concept made by humans. No shit. Though without these rules or laws, we'll have something called anarchy, and anarchy isnt very much fun.

It's sort of like humans going back to the times when there was no social order really. And well, it tends to happen like that in certain places because this lawlessness is human nature.

That's why you see corrupt police officers, because power corrupts, I sometimes think they give police officers too much power. I dont think it's fair that they are allowed to carry fire arms, but I'm not. If the police are allowed, I should be allowed too.

Anyways that's not the point. Though there is justice. Though human beings arent perfect, so of course the system is very flawed and unfair. But human beings are flawed. There is no such thing as perfection. Anything perfect cannot excist. Since everything is different and has flaws. It's the basic order of the universe.

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Post Re: There must be Justice.
My question was never really answered; why do you equate Justice with Vengeance?


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Post Re: There must be Justice.
I tried to answer your question Hammm, but apparently I wasn't quite clear.

I'm not equating justice with vengence. Were I doing that, I would be wishing that I PERSONALLY could administer my own brand of justice upon those that have done me wrong. That's not what I'm saying at all. I said the fact that I can't do anything back to them pissed me off, yes, but that's kinda a tangent. Justice to me means, as I've been saying, natures way of ensuring you get what you deserve. Eat the whole birthday cake and you get sick to your stomach. That kinda thing. Justice isn't vengeance, it's punishment enacted so that hopefully the assholes will realize "Ya know, that really fucking sucked when it just happened to me...maybe I shouldn't be such an asshole driver."

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Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:42 pm
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Post Re: There must be Justice.
Dark Jester wrote:
I tried to answer your question Hammm, but apparently I wasn't quite clear.

I'm not equating justice with vengence. Were I doing that, I would be wishing that I PERSONALLY could administer my own brand of justice upon those that have done me wrong. That's not what I'm saying at all. I said the fact that I can't do anything back to them pissed me off, yes, but that's kinda a tangent. Justice to me means, as I've been saying, natures way of ensuring you get what you deserve. Eat the whole birthday cake and you get sick to your stomach. That kinda thing. Justice isn't vengeance, it's punishment enacted so that hopefully the assholes will realize "Ya know, that really fucking sucked when it just happened to me...maybe I shouldn't be such an asshole driver."


I think you're way too idealistic. Even with your brand of "justice"/"punishment", there are still going to be people who break rules.

I think you'd feel a lot better if you accepted things for the way they are instead of expecting other people to be in alignment with your idealistic view. Because really, it's not a perfect world.

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Post Re: There must be Justice.
I'm not idealistic, in a perfect world my brand of justice would have such people killed in a horrific car wreck caused by them being assholes. I prefer the 3-fold form of justice...your wrong doings come back to bite you three times worse than the acts themselves. But yes, this isn't how the world works. The over all point of this topic is the fact that if some universal force of justice, a way of "nature" keeping a balance of "good and evil", then all human accomplishment, all human thought, all human morals and ethics are all meaningless: we truly are animals who got lucky by developing a thumb and now we have some undeserved sense of self importance.

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