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 Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard. 
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
Ned Flanders just took over No Spam.

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Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:22 am
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
You only have to do #8. I should know since I'm a Christian.

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Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:48 am
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
digit-all wrote:
You only have to do #8. I should know since I'm a Christian.


Yeah, no. That's definitely not the only thing you have to do. Say an unrepentant murderer believed in Jesus, do you think he's going straight to heaven? Nope. There's more to it than just believing in Jesus. You actually have to take action toward becoming a good person.

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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
We get it, Christianity is bullshit, let's drop it and move on.


Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:48 pm
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
What translation of the bible is that, Lime? NIV? NASB?

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Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:10 pm
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
That is something to keep in mind, though, by the way. All these things are in translation, and yes, translation has a HUGE impact on exegesis. In fact, I can think of at least one passage where it is very difficult to properly translate the Greek to English and get the full meaning (some of it, sure, but not some major aspects). Also, I don't think you realize the struggles and controversies and differences that have arisen out of different Biblical translations. Hell, NIV is an abridged version of the Holy Bible. I personally prefer the New American Bible, but I can accept some others like New Jerusalem.

Another thing, of course, is that you seem to be giving us things to interpret completely literally, and ask us to do so based on passages taken out of context. That's terrible exegesis. Not to say that things are never to be taken literally, but there is always more to it, and often in context are obviously using certain kinds of rhetorical devices, and again, translation sometimes becomes a factor in how strong this is, as well as which manuscripts were used to form everything.

I'm surprised though that you didn't mention this passage: ""Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few." (Mt. 7:13-14 NAB) And, of course, the verse directly before it may have given some deeper context to your no. 7. "Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets" (Mt. 7:12 NAB). However, I know the passage, and in fact directly before, and following it, Jesus was in fact interpreting the Law and the Prophets and giving such, and thus very well could have been refering to the specifics He spoke of rather than others. That's a debate for another day though. What you failed to mention was he actually took the laws and made them more severe and harder to follow.
He did, by the way, very much say something about being a good person. I would say all these things have to do with being a good person in the strictest and most philosophical sense of the word. He also said at one point you must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect, I'm pretty sure we can interpret that as a superlative form of "good person".

In any case, he actually said to do alot more.
@Digit: Well, take it from me, as someone who is both a Christian and working towards my Ph.D. in Systematic Theology, not all Christians really know what they are talking about, and you do indeed need more than just #8. You should read James Chapter 2 sometime (as well as many other places in the Bible, including in the Gospels). Here is an excerpt, but I encourage you to read the rest as he gives more and more proof of this argument:
" For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble."(James 2: 13-19 NAB).

That first verse was included to point out the place of Mercy in all this as well. "Mercy triumphs over judgment".

In any case, its improper to simply rely only on what is said in Scripture, without assistance in interpretation from Tradition, and ignoring the additions of Tradition would also be foolish. After all, the Gospels emphasize that what is contained therein is far from all the teachings of Christ. There is much more, and there are so many ways to interpret all this that we need another point to help figure out what is the correct way, or at least a guide pointing in the proper direction.

Yes, it is difficult to get into Heaven, that is clear, but anyone can. After all do not forget that although would be easier for a donkey (or a camel) to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven, still nothing is impossible for God.

For something especially enlightening, read John Paul II's "The Splendor of Truth" as it relates to #2.
Also, I find it funny that you mentioned no. 4 as only the Catholics and Orthodox really take that one very seriously, some of the Anglicans do I guess. And we take it with utmost seriousness. Martin Luther dismissed it at the beginning of his paper on the Captivity of the Eucharist (may have a different title), in a way I find rather arbitrary except that it refuted his basis.

Edit: And yes, I expect you to read all that if you wish to post after this. Welcome to my world.

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Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:08 am
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
I plan to burn in hell for all eternity. Can I be excused from reading?

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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
You obviously have never heard translators argue, nor have heard of the some of the biggest religious controversies in history which resulted specifically from translation problems (and not only Biblical translation problems).

But you didn't seem to apply everything I said. Remember, interpretation is not only in translating, there are alot of rhetorical devices being used and context that comes into play which changes the actual impact of alot of these things in such a way that it doesn't actually contain any contradiction which you speak of. Also, don't forget that the English language has far more words than any other language, and far different shades and connotations for words. Differences can be amazing. For instance, Greek, as I recall, which most the Gospels and letters were written in, has at least three words for love, different kinds of love, yet no word for "like".

In any case, I could explain to you the basic philosophy which would say "of course that all means good person", but even without that if you don't think that all of the above in some way is related to telling you how to and commanding you to be a good person, you've missed the whole point. Really, you've just missed the point of it all.

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Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:50 pm
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
Actually, I believe its YOUR task to point out to ME the things that have nothing to do with being a good person. I asserted that such things do not exist, but rather that all the things actually have to do with being a good person.

And, why not? He has no obligation to tell us anything, let alone anything we understand. There are, of course, other explanations, many of which may be given or discussed among believers, but for the sense of the problem you propose, they aren't necessary.

Although, just because I can't resist, I will add this comment: Some people tried to ban 1984 for being PRO-Communist.

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Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:07 pm
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
Oh, I read it. But, again, as per any discussion, YOU are the one responsible for pointing out things YOU propose. Why should I make YOUR argument for you? I asserted the reverse. Go ahead, tell me what you say does not have to do with being a good person, and then we shall discuss that matter.

In any case, essentially all you are saying is "God isn't acting the way I want Him to in my own mind! WAH! WHY THINGS HARD!? PERFECT MAN SHOULD DO WHAT I WANT AND BE THE WAY I WANT HIM TO BE!"

Also, are you SURE they contradict? Or do YOUR INTERPRETATIONS contradict? Now, granted, this could be said with alot of things, but it cannot be ignored. When you are dealing with around 30 different books, written over 1000 years, in different areas, with different rhetorical and literary devices and styles, all of which are from cultures 2000 years ago and very distant, you are likely to have some difficulty understanding every nuance. But, then again, thats why no one until Luther relied solely on the Bible for understanding.

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Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:28 am
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
Everyone that has not been brainwashed from children believes its all bullshit :l


Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:02 pm
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
Interesting. Now do you mean "from CHILDHOOD" or do you mean "brainwashed BY children".

In any case, you obviously are pulling that out of nothing, or something as flimsy as your personal experiences (which, right now, I have doubts you've even really bothered to ask everyone you know on either side, assuming they are even of a significant number, about it). Why do I say such? Because some of the best known theologians and Christians writers, or Christian anythings, have actually been converts from atheism. C.S. Lewis, for example, big time atheist, vehement as such at times even, now one of the best known Christian writers/ theologians. The famous philosopher Descartes, while I'll admit he was likely raised in a Christian background, turned atheist for a while until he wrote his meditations and did his famous "I think, therefore I am" which many neglect to note that the very next step was his proof of God (granted he gave little details about this God, other than being a God with the general philosophical characteristics), and as far as I'm aware didn't prove anything beyond that.

There is a long list of others, of course, but that should do for now.

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Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:16 pm
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Post Re: Getting Into Heaven Is Very Hard.
Lime wrote:
I used to believe because my parents did and they told me it was good. I was also told that if i was not "good"(Lol) I would go to hell.
TENT is the one who actually got me to start questioning everything around me; Good ole free thinker.
Also I like how you completely ignored the video.


I figured it wasn't very relevant, but also didn't have time to watch it. Now I have.
So... yea, it pretty much illustrates what you have been doing: taking bits and pieces of things and basing your interpretations on those bits out of context.

Interestingly, most of the things the "Christian" says are not important the same way as Jesus is saying them are actually things that the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church do uphold, i.e. this person seems to be illustrating that much of the protestant reformation, despite some of their emphasis on scripture, don't actually follow it as well as the Catholics do who have traditionally used the Bible as secondary to Tradition (though this has somewhat shifted since Vatican II).

As for myself, I tended to think pretty critically about this stuff a lot since my pre-teenage years. I had to think, I was constantly being challenged everywhere, including by my older brother (10years older than me, mind you) who was an Atheist (last few years he has more and more turned back from his atheism though) and liked most of all to challenge and try to reason away or poke holes in Christianity, etc.
But, the greatest challenges and stages of thinking came in high school FROM a few of my theology teachers. Freshmen year we were picked at a bit, and our teacher taught us briefly about St. Ignatius' "Spiritual Exercises" which actually involves tearing down the faith completely, and then trying to build it back up, in order to get at the reality of the faith and NOT to be based simply on "well, I've always done things this way". And then later I had another theology teacher that REALLY liked to shock and tear down things, especially at me for a little while though I showed I had enough knowledge and reason to battle him on these things, and would always tell us "I'm always lying to you. Never believe anything I say unless you do the research and critical thinking yourself to confirm or deny it", a general rule of thumb about everyone who teaches you. The higher theological critique came later in College, of course, but that was generally on matters within the theological field, between theologians.

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