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 Fetuses aren't people, they're fetuses. 
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Post Fetuses aren't people, they're fetuses.
As for your other stuff, fetuses are not self aware and aren't even people for that matter. Yolk isn't a chicken, it's yolk. Fetuses aren't people, they're fetuses.

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Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:31 pm
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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
CarsitoPyg wrote:
i never said that his beliefs were good or bad. the whole reason for my comment was because I didn't like how people were already trying to blame him for problems that were going on.

as for your other stuff, fetuses are not self aware and aren't even people for that matter. Yolk isn't a chicken, it's yolk. Fetuses aren't people, they're fetuses.


Based on what? Does a person in a coma cease to be a person while in the coma, lacking awareness? Do we suddenly loose our rights when knocked unconscious (seeing as how we lack consciousness by the very term)? And when does self-awareness begin exactly? Does it even begin at birth? Whats to say it doesn't begin before birth for many? Depending on how we try to even guess at this it may happen years AFTER birth for that matter for most. But how do we determine this? Why does it even matter? What exactly IS self-awareness? A fetus can feel a considerable amount of pain (actually more pain than we do at certain stages) and react to various stimuli, what is it you need and what is it you can prove is lacking that is self -awareness? And shit, how many animals can we say, or do we say, are self aware, and yet look at all the rights and protection THEY have by the law.
In any case, either way its human life. Human life is already something worthy of rights and protection. The distinction between human life and human person hood is rather arbitrary and the government shouldn't have any right to distinguish between the two anyway, since honestly, you and I both know the idea behind the distinction in the law and courts (or, at least the excuse, whether any of them care for it or not), is the idea of the soul, they uphold that the life does not have a soul until birth, without giving much reason for this idea. But I'm sure you would likely agree that it has never been the place, nor qualifications of, the courts or legislature or executive office for that matter to determine when human life receives a soul, or even if there is a soul. Thus the distinction should be irrelevant to the government.

Anyway, the point is my grievances are against things that Obama actually has done or has tried to do ALREADY.

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Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:59 am
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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
actually, i determine it to be a separate person once the fetus is fully grown into an actual, human baby.

And self-awareness is determined by the strength of it's Central Nervous system. a 6 month old fetus doesn't have a fully developed Central Nervous System, so it's not self aware.

If someone's brain were to be heavily damaged to the point that he is brain dead and just an empty body, he is no longer self-aware.

The idea of the soul is nice for church and all, but it sucks when it comes to medicine and science.

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Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:27 am
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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
CarsitoPyg wrote:
And self-awareness is determined by the strength of it's Central Nervous system.




False. Try again.

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Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:39 pm
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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
psychokittyboy wrote:
CarsitoPyg wrote:
And self-awareness is determined by the strength of it's Central Nervous system.




False. Try again.

care to elaborate?

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Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:55 pm
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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
What is there to elaborate? Self awareness is defined by being aware of ones own existence. It was once believed this was only something found in adult humans. Then it was discovered that, suprise, elephants were self ware... then lions, and so many other creatures later on.

It has nothing to do with the "strength of the Central Nervous system". Only that one is aware they are in fact in existence. "I think, therefore I am" if you will.

Now, do I know if a fetus is self aware? No. But then again, no one is. Thus the debate spliting the scientific community at the moment... not to mention Pro-Life and not Pro-Life movements.

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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
Besides, if you based it on the development of the nervous system, you actually wouldn't have self-awareness until sometime in the 20s for human life. Our bodies and brains, including the nervous system, is continually developing in last record until at least the mid 20s, and indications say even longer. Humans typically are born before most other developments common in other animals at birth are made, like the ability to walk, because humans have such large brains it would take too long and but too much stress on the mother.

In any case, I think it has thus been shown that the distinction is so far arbitrary.
Your brushing aside of the soul idea actually assists my point. As I said before, THAT is the distinction the courts and legislators are ACTUALLY making, but it is not THEIR place to make it. If you argue there is no soul even, this point is further reinforced. If you leave it up to the very people YOU claimed the idea belongs to (Church), they'll tell you the human soul enters at conception, the moment of human life, and thus again we have an arbitrary point without distinction between birth and pre-birth. It really doesn't matter which course you go on this.

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Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:42 pm
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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
Actually, the Nervous system has much to do with self awareness.

better yet, the mere brain. If your Brain is not developed to a certain point, you are not able to THINK... and therefore... how do you know you exist if you can't even think of that? hmm.

Fetuses are merely parasites.

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Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:02 pm
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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
Been listening to BitingBeaver have ya there kiddo?

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Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:25 pm
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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
no... never even heard of them...

this might be considered spam out of spam board... too bad you're an assist admin...

ABUSE of POWER!

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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
CarsitoPyg wrote:
Actually, the Nervous system has much to do with self awareness.

better yet, the mere brain. If your Brain is not developed to a certain point, you are not able to THINK... and therefore... how do you know you exist if you can't even think of that? hmm.

Fetuses are merely parasites.


We're back in circles. Again, what point is it that you say the Nervous System is now ready to think? How do you know it isn't ready at a fetal stage? How do you know it IS ready at birth? So far it seems arbitrary. There is, as far as I've ever found, no discernable difference in this field between a child 10 min before birth and 10 min after. Yet somehow one is a person and the other not.
And again, so a person who goes into a coma. They are not brain dead, though they are not able to "think". Or, simply, a person is unconscious for a while. Are they suddenly not "people" because they are not thinking/ able to think at those times?

And why is the state of thinking the determining factor? Why not thinking clearly, or with a fully developed mature brain? After all, there is probably a greater difference between the brains and developments of a 15 year old and a 4 year old than there are between an unborn child and a 1 week old child.
And besides, many would ask how you can THINK without language. In which case, maybe a child isn't a person until they understand language much later on. Especially later for those like Helen Keller I would guess.

And, in any case, last I checked this was NOT the reasoning used for the courts and legislatures distinctions on the matter.
If Fetuses are merely parasites, that would mean that all of humanity is a parasite as Fetus is a very particular stage of all human development. There are many who would agree with you on that point. Often extreme environmentalists, but I think Agent Smith gave a similar notion in "The Matrix".

Interestingly, you also seem to have neglected my earlier point that I wasn't actually concerned about whether fetuses, or embryo's or even adults, are "people". I went with the simple idea that ALL human life forms should be protected and have rights. Whether person or not. I believe that they are people, but I that is not relevant to the earlier point that they should be protected and I have great distaste for President Barack Obama doing everything he can to destroy such human life. Though he and the democrats have not at all lately been limiting their destruction to the unborn. Which I also mentioned earlier.

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Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:57 am
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Post Re: Fetuses aren't people, they're fetuses.
We know once detached from the mother they are finally people. They are individuals that live off of themselves only and not someone else.

But to say ALL HUMAN LIFE FORMS should be protected... why not sperm? It is merely an underdeveloped human who needs the assistance of the egg, just how a fetus needs the assistance of the mother. Shouldn't it be illegal to masturbate or hold sperm clinics? I mean, that's MILLIONS of little human forms being put into a vile that'll be dissected or something.

And the actual activity within the brain and nervous system is what creates thought. In fact, that's how we know how thought works, by measuring the activity in the Nervous System. Without the Brain there is no thought. Simple biology, really. It's not a very obscure subject. Now, if you wanna bring souls into the equation... well, that's not something for the government to decide on. Since there's no physical evidence to support that souls exist, there should be no reason to make laws based on that idea. There is, however, physical evidence to show that thinking occurs within the brain and with the assistance of neurons traveling through the Nervous System.

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Post Re: Obama's Economic Strats.
CarsitoPyg wrote:
no... never even heard of them...

this might be considered spam out of spam board... too bad you're an assist admin...

ABUSE of POWER!



Biting Beaver is a person. Who spews that same crap about Fetuses being parasites. Thus relevent. Try again.

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Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:09 pm
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Post Re: Fetuses aren't people, they're fetuses.
If you had explained that more instead of saying "listening to whatever, kiddo?" then maybe, but you didn't...

If all arguments were like yours, it wouldn't be serious.

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Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:58 pm
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Post Re: Fetuses aren't people, they're fetuses.
Sue me for thinking you may know a little about the Radical Femnist movements.

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Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:05 am
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